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Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 18, 2011 2:45:31 GMT
I've heard rumours from someone high up within crossrail that the network will run on TVM signalling.
Is this correct? If so, what are people's opinions on it? Personally I cannot see the point as TVM is normally used on 140mph+ high speed lines.
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 18, 2011 7:20:47 GMT
They obviously weren't high enough up to know that the IRSE has an article in the December IRSE News which details the mess that the Crossrail signalling policy is in. It doesn't say that it's a mess of course but that's the way it reads. If it reads that way, it's almost certainly worse on the ground.
The upshot is that because someone has "declared" that Crossrail must be TSI compliant (think running DB ICEs non stop between commuter trains at 2.5 minute intervals?) it should have ETCS. But they also want ATO and PSDs, which ETCS can't do yet. So, they've decided to try CBTC of some sort. They will have to get an EU derogation to do it. It makes you wonder why they decided to go for TSI in the first place.
The system will only be used in the new/tunnel sections. It will have to interface with the GW ETCS west of Paddington (if its ready by then) and with TPWS/AWS east of Pudding Mill. Should be doable, if someone can agree what the ETCS system will look like by then.
The only French connection is that the Crossrail's advisors Systra (joint SNCF/RATP consultants) are linked to the Paris RER resignalling that is specifying CBTC. This is normal French procedure - specify TSIs for everyone in Europe and then go off and do their own thing. Cynique? Moi?
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Post by bronzeonion on Dec 18, 2011 9:43:37 GMT
Why the hell dont they just use normal NR signalling! Standardisation in signalling is virtually non existant in London!
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 18, 2011 11:28:17 GMT
If Crossrail fails as a metro route; I suppose it can always be used to make an end to the Central London terminus.
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Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 18, 2011 12:00:54 GMT
Tubeprune, fantastic info. Makes it sound like they're going to try and make a mainline TOC run like the underground. I.e many trains in an area bunched up together.
Guess we will hear more as time progresses, I know someone who is working on the commissioning of CrossRail stock so will ask a couple of questions
Thanks.
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Post by Guest on Dec 18, 2011 18:18:55 GMT
I agree with bronzeonion why don't they just use Conventional signaling which is still standard on many railways in England and Europe.
Will Crossrail warrant ATO? Obviously 2.5 min intervals it pritty High Frequency and will need a good signaling system to cope with the amount of trains per hour. Would'nt having more signals between stations just be as good as a moving block signaling? I know the JLE had a problem with few signals between stations which ultametly affected TPH.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 18, 2011 18:32:16 GMT
A signal every 100 metres? (Isn't that prone to failures though)
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 19, 2011 1:23:31 GMT
A signal every 100 metres? (Isn't that prone to failures though) I suggest you investigate balises. We're watching. |
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Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 19, 2011 17:12:30 GMT
Bit puzzled as to why ERTMS isn't being used, bearing in mind the millions spent on successful testing/commissioning in the west.
I'm sure I heard that in time, ERTMS would become the industry standard across Europe, Scotland, Wales and UK!
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Post by Guest on Dec 19, 2011 17:25:40 GMT
What signaling system are they going to use Will it be a transmittion based signaling system like on the Jubilee line? From what I have heard ATO will be used in the central sections and probally another signaling system on the rest of the line I think it is a bit silly using ATO on one section of line you will not get the full benifit of ATO!
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Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 19, 2011 17:27:49 GMT
What signaling system are they going to use Will it be a transmittion based signaling system like on the Jubilee line? From what I have heard ATO will be used in the central sections and probally another signaling system on the rest of the line I think it is a bit silly using ATO on one section of line you will not get the full benifit of ATO! Tubeprune answered your question. |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 19, 2011 17:33:59 GMT
Bit puzzled as to why ERTMS isn't being used, bearing in mind the millions spent on successful testing/commissioning in the west. I'm sure I heard that in time, ERTMS would become the industry standard across Europe, Scotland, Wales and UK! Are you really being serious? |
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 19, 2011 18:10:02 GMT
Bit puzzled as to why ERTMS isn't being used, bearing in mind the millions spent on successful testing/commissioning in the west. I'm sure I heard that in time, ERTMS would become the industry standard across Europe, Scotland, Wales and UK! Are you really being serious? No, I don't think he is.  ERTMS is a an answer looking for a question. The idea was to have a common signalling system across Europe to allow interoperability without the need to equip trains with umpteen different systems like TVM, KVB, LZB, AWS, TPWS, etc. However, many cross-border trains are already equipped like this and most of the leading countries have already spent squillions on doing it and on their own ATP systems. So, they ask, why should we spend more on ERTMS when we have perfectly good systems of our own? UK included. That's the economic issue; then there's the engineering issue. This is mainly driven by each country having its own rules and wanting to incorporate them into the ERTMS software. This makes getting a common system problematic, to say the least. ERTMS is not the universal cure for all signalling ills that the EC would have us believe. It is, however, a long term goal that we should not ignore. |
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Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 20, 2011 3:18:42 GMT
Mrfs42, should your comments be that of worth reading then don't comment please. They aren't as knowledge based as tubeprune's and considering how this forum is strictly moderated on things such as spam, I feel it's only fair for you to retract your statement.
Tube prune, I was under the impression that stock in the west had been retrofitted with ERTMS and the testing was going really rather well.
Incorporating European signalling into most UK rolling stock in my opinion isn't worth it unless you're dealing with the trains I work on (373s). It would make depot based testing easier and in the long run be a lot cheaper.
I guess the work load would be a lot easier too, no one likes doing in cab signalling exam when you've got to test TVM430, AWS, TPWS, KVB, BRS and TBL.
Hmm, I do like the debates about signalling as for the mainline it seems to be a bit of a grey area as the way I read it, no one seems really mad on getting ATO/TBTC on this side of the tracks.
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Post by tubeprune on Dec 20, 2011 7:28:56 GMT
Actually, mrfs42's knowledge of signalling is better than mine but we don't want to argue about that :-). As for the UK's experiments with ERTMS, they have had a lot of problems but you would expect these with a completely new system. I think the issue is over the cost/benefits.
The issue over ATO on main line railways is simply the variety of stock and the difficulty of designing a system that works on all types of train. That is why ATO is being restricted largely to the in-tunnel sections of Thameslink and Crossrail.
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